So on today's episode, we're talking with Sam Thomas, a genuinely inspiring, wonderful guy from Brighton who's doing amazing work in men's mental health and suicide prevention. He goes very deep and honest about his own times, of where he's hit rock bottom from nearly losing a child to even thoughts of suicide going through his entrepreneurial career. We then also look into the whole challenge of going inward to understand, um, enough, and then really being brave and going out there and harnessing the help of those around us. And he talks beautifully about some examples and stories of how him asking for help has really changed his life. This conversation genuinely left me inspired and truly humbled. Sam. Welcome to the Gift of Help podcast. I'm really excited about this conversation. We've only known each other a short amount of time, but it feels like there's so much alignment and open mindedness and like mindedness. So, um. Yeah, I'll get into it. But thanks so much for your time on this. I absolute pleasure honoured to be on. I said we have only known each other, but it does seem like we've known each other for a long time, which is a lovely thing. Aren't we connected, I think. Just. Just the way that we first connected. What was that? I loved the way that you reached out to me and was like, can we maybe just have a this? I'm going to ask you a couple of questions as a way of getting to know you. And it was just I was like, this is that every encounter should start, right? Absolutely. And, and the beginning of a beautiful friendship and relationship and, and hopefully for this conversation as well. So let's get straight into it. So we're often influenced if we think about it from our early years. And for this conversation, I'm particularly interested about people's attitudes towards asking for help and accepting help. So if you were going to reflect back on your early years, on your childhood years, can you share what that was like. Maybe there's some individual stories. What was the experience and what was the context for feeling comfortable about asking for help or accepting help? Yeah, I think for me, there was I grew up in a very working class background in Dagenham. Um, until from the Essex twang, obviously, I had a great upbringing, really. I had an older brother who's my best mate. Um, I've got two beautiful parents who I was just loved unconditionally. I think that growing up I had an amazing I had amazing childhood. I do think in relation to ask him for help, I just don't think it was even a thing back then for me. Like it just as a youngster, you just get on with stuff. Like, I don't think it was a, you know, there was maybe some archaic narratives around working class boys, men, whatever. That would be where you look at it and go, you just get on with it, like, get up, get on with it. You know? I mean, there's no vulnerability. Things have changed so much now, you know. Um, some of the stuff I'm doing and what we're both doing. Right. Trying to change those narratives around what? Asking for help or being vulnerable would look like I just wasn't. He wasn't there. He didn't necessarily want to. If you if he was low or you was upset about something, would you ask for help? How would you support up to it I know. I think for me as well, I was quite I was quite independent quite early on, I think. Look, my brother was very homely, like he didn't want to go. I couldn't wait to go. I remember going to Wales on my own when we met some friends on holiday. Um, and I was a young Welsh lad who had become good mates with me. And I'd go. I'd go and visit him. My mum would put me on the train in London, I'd get off at the other end and I was only like I was young. I must have been like 11 or 12 or something, you know what I mean? Like back then and it was fine, I just, but it never fazed me. Like I would go. Like my brother wouldn't even want to go on camp and stay overnight or something. Somewhere. Well, older or younger? Older. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, but for me, I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll stay, I'll stay away. I'll go and have sleepovers. I didn't, didn't I said I was loved Duncan did the most amazing parents. Well, it wasn't like I wanted to get away, but as soon as I was old enough to get my own place, I'd move out and I got my. So I think I was just quite independent because I never really faced much adversity when I was younger. But, you know, like I said, very working class background in Dagenham and you grew up and everyone knew each other's business and you just I just got on with life and that was it. There was no I never faced any I was never bullied. And I had a reasonably good upbringing, but I don't think it just wasn't a thing back then. I'm looking back and thinking, I asked him for help. I just there was narratives around it. I just wouldn't it just wouldn't be spoke about you. Just if something happened, you just go, okay, And you just get on with it. And it's only in reflecting. And as I'm getting, uh, where I am there and looking back at stuff there was as amazing as my mom and dad are. And they are amazing. Things like emotions and stuff weren't necessarily always shared. It just wasn't a time for that. You know, I mean, we just wouldn't not start the conversation I probably have with my kids. It just wasn't maybe that space. It wasn't the language to use. It wasn't a thing that people would do as families necessarily, you know. So it's an interesting one because it's like now we've got the the wisdom of now and the advanced years to look back. So would you say it wasn't something when you say it wasn't a thing? Can you look back now and say. Actually, it didn't hold you back or didn't support you or propel you forward, that sense of independence, or you just doubled down and got on with your stuff? Probably wasn't until I was in my late 30s, early 40s that you hit some adversity or some challenges Jeez. And you then haven't got the skills or tools to be able to ask for help. And you don't know what that looks like. So then it becomes quite insular, and then you struggle a bit more and you don't know what. You can't unpack that. You don't know what that that looks like, you know. Um, and it's until you realise how important it is that you need. We all need. All of us will needs help at some point in our lives. Right. Um, we'll have our own struggles and how we navigate that. But it's other people that help you off them through that time, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so we're fast forwarding to your 30s. Your 40s? Childhood was fond memories. Was there a moment that you could share with us that where I know you hit rock bottom, it was a crisis point. It was a okay. I need to ask for help. Is there something you can share? Yeah. Speaks to that happily. I guess I've always been a glass half full person. I'm an eternal optimist. Things are always going to be alright. They're smart. I've lived the life of ultimate positivity, maybe to a point of toxic positivity, if I'm being honest, like I'm. Of course. Everything's a smile on your face. Everything's going to be fine when we're streaming. Kelly. My wife. We tried for kids. We had a miscarriage on Christmas Day. Four months later, we had an ectopic pregnancy. Um, then we had a long period of not not getting pregnant, then an IVF journey. So I would highlight those as challenges. But for me personally, Kelly really struggled at that time. And I think the protective nature just made me go. It was all going to be alright and I was, I was okay, I maybe didn't again, didn't have the skill, didn't sit with emotions, didn't understand that what that would mean sitting with my own feelings or my own. so just may be suppressed. Some of that because I wanted to protect her. So I don't think I really dealt with that. And even when when the twins were born, we had a really tough pregnancy. So Sienna came out first and she was, um, natural and all fine. So. And I was holding her in my arms and then we literally within half an hour, alarms were going off emergency caesarean and Kelly was rushed down. Um, and Lucy was at limp and floppy, had to be rushed to intensive care. And I went from I went from the happiest I'd probably ever been holding centre, looking in my daughter's eyes for the first time to the most scared within, within that set, within half an hour, 45 minutes. But even at that point, like I, I had to be, I guess, in my head. I remember speaking to the doctor, and I remember the doctor saying to me, there's the potential All that, um, you know, there's severe and moderate loses in a sort of severe to moderate stage. So there's cerebral palsy, brain damage. These were the type of things that they were talking to me about. And I'm like, okay. And I remember I specifically remember sitting to the doctor, Kelly was still in bits because he'd obviously given that birth naturally and in an emergency caesarean. So I'd um, but I, I remember sitting with a doctor specifically and saying, my brain works in one way. I've seen all the stuff that you've given me and listened to all the information. Is there a possibility she can walk out? She's going to be okay. Yeah. No, it was like we can't say one way or the other. Um, of course I'd have every. But of course, if she was on a call in that treatment. So like a map that reduced the temperature of her body to reduce a swelling in her brain. So she was on that for 72 hours, and I slept with her for most of that time. And her lips were blue and had wires and stuff. God awful thing. But When I asked that doctor and he said, there's a possibility that she'll be fine. Oh, well, that's all I need to hear. And he might have had them for that period of time. Everything's going to be all right until you tell me that it's not going to be. And I held on to that. And after him. And she did. She responded really well to the treatment. She came out in the same doctor. So I think was in for three weeks. After three weeks as home doctors said, we've done an MRI. In answer to your question three weeks ago. We can't see any problem. And it was at that moment then I just I broke and I failed and I cuddled the doctor, I think, with tears of joy and happiness and stuff like that. But I'm just trying to paint a picture of like how I dealt with things in there. Probably the main things that I'd had that were maybe some struggles or some challenges that I'd faced in life up until then, and I dealt with them in that way, not really dealing with them properly or emotionally. You had a three week period of the unknown. Mhm. Mhm. And it's interesting when you brought that up it's like I started to reflect on my own journey through through cancer. It's the from the point of having symptoms to the point of diagnosis is probably the hardest time because you don't know what's going on. And that's when I know I went through my own journey of, right, okay, get out of your own way. You need to accept help. Ask for help. Can you reflect back to that three week period and how you navigated that period of the unknown? And I don't I don't want to project, but I imagine that was a tough time. Yeah. I remember running up and down stairs between Sienna and Kelly and and Lucy and and I still remember, um. I still remember speaking to her, Lucy. And I remember saying she looked so cold. She looked so cold. I remember holding her little like her hand would wrap around my finger. And I remember and I remember saying so. Said your Uncle Ben. He's in Australia. I said, so when we get over here and everything's all right, I'm going to take you to Australia and we're going to be in a nice warm sun and we're going to be like that. And I just had to keep in my head. I had to keep that positivity. At that time, I couldn't allow myself to go to a place of, um, I couldn't allow myself to go to the place that she wouldn't be okay, I couldn't allow. And even to the point, I'm not a religious person at all. But I went to the chapel at the hospital, and I was sat there and I prayed. I asked for help. I asked for help. I said, laughs, only now she's reflecting on it. Sorry. It's only now reflecting on it. But it was. I asked God for help. Wow. And I I'm not religious. I don't, you know. And I say, gosh, what are you saying? You go back to them times and you, um. Yeah. Well and yeah and I did I remember sitting and I think that was my coping. But like I said for being in everything's going to be oh I knew everything. Oh my head I convinced myself everything would be all right if you take the psalm of today. Older, wiser, braver, what might have you have told the Psalm of the new father to Lucy, to how to navigate that three week period? I mean, it's wonderful that you can have that honesty to reflect, actually cut whatever the word is spiritually sought from help from a, from from God. But what what would there be? Anything. Now you would tell Sam, I think of that day, I think not going back to that journey. Maybe in all honesty, I think there's a part there's a part of me. There's a part of me that, um, it was great that I was in the frame of mind. I was right because that got me through a tough period to. And I felt like I had to be the one that was. Everything's going to be okay. Kelly was, for obvious reasons, was in a lot of pain, and she was really stressed and upset and worried. And I still remember her saying to me at the end of that when I when I broke down and I cuddled the doc, she said, I'll just see you drop. It's almost like he was holding it together for so long. And the second he said of things, why you went and that was. And he was gone then. Um, but I think that reflecting that, knowing what I do now about when I've really had to ask for help, that would be the thing I would say, like, it's okay to, uh, I don't know. It's hard, isn't it? Because I think part of me got through that because I felt I was strong, but I know that I could have still maybe been there. I could have still maybe been that strong, positive person and yet still gone. I'm worried about this. I didn't have the skills. I didn't have the tools to be able to to do, to do that, to articulate it, to say to someone that if I was in front of anyone else, mum and dad, people were ringing me and think, oh yeah, he's going to be fine. I never really went. I'm really worried or scared about it, I think because I couldn't allow myself to go to that place. So I think it was more of a coping mechanism at that stage, which maybe helped to a degree. But all you do really in stages, what I'm learning about myself as I'm getting older, I don't necessarily know wiser, but definitely older. Um, that's a lot of what you do is you suppress that or you suppress those feelings. If you can't articulate, you don't open up about them. You don't say, I'm struggling with this. And, you know, I don't know how to navigate this. I'm really worried. And, um, I think that it's. I just think there's what I've learned, especially in this last year, is that how much emotion I've suppressed over my life, really. And I think what I'd say in answer to it, in a long winded way of answering your question, is just to go. It's okay to just to not be okay and ask for help. And, um, you haven't got a live audience. You haven't got to be the person that might be the eternal optimist and positive person always. You can have elements in that, and I think that's healthy. But actually it's okay to have you don't have to suppress the rest of it. You can. That's what I'd probably say. Yeah. It's an interesting reflection on it's a hypothesis, but maybe there was space for both. What I'm hearing from you is you had a coping mechanism to survive. That meant that you could be essentially the rock. You know, the rock for Kelly there. Uh, I'm going to be there through this period and then allow the space to, okay, collapse and relief. But perhaps it's. There was also space for that resilience. That sense of strength could have been reinforced by the the pockets, the windows of being able to share whatever was being suppressed. I mean, it's a hypothesis now, but I love that I think 100% one of my big reflections. And one of the things we're trying, I'm trying to teach kids as we're going into schools is actually this is one of the things, again, you reflect back on your childhood, as we've mentioned before, but I wasn't given the skills or tools to understand and process my emotions. So not understanding that both emotions can sit alongside each other. Right. I think that's what really an insight you've just said there is exactly that. I didn't have the skills to understand that, that actually I can be the eternal optimist and be really positive over here and also be really sad and scared here at the same time. And I'm allowed to have both of those emotions and I can. But what I did, although I had both of those emotions, I shared that one and didn't share that one. So I suppress that one. Um, suppress the one that was that was scared and it was vulnerable and didn't know what was going to happen. I suppressed that one because I had to be here. I had to be the eternal optimist, and I understand, I think if we give kids them skills to and if I was giving them skills to understand my emotions, that true feelings can, happiness and sadness can live in the same place. Yeah, I think that's that's a massive, massive learning for all of us life. Imagine if all kids had that skill. Like how do we when we face other challenges later in life, we can one understand them and to be able to articulate them and be okay with them? Yeah. I mean, this is I'm loving this. This is fascinating. I've never had this insight or perspective on what you've just framed, which is to what appear conflicting or contrasting emotions can coexist, and to honour both of them and not have the one which is optimism, which could be, yes, helpful and survival and give you the ability to be a rock, but then have the acknowledgement and the bravery to acknowledge it. Okay, I am worried there is some anxiety and there's space to honour that as well. By doing that, you can be stronger, right? More grounded. And as you say, I mean, gosh, we're you know, we're in our whatever 40s, 50s and we're still learning, right? And we're saying and I love also the essence of your work, which is also what I'd love for my work to continue into giving the tools, giving the the education, giving the insights to to the younger generation to have that ability to go right, what's going on? And actually, as you say, okay, observe. What? First of all, you got to have the awareness to go, what's going on? Yeah. And then you just say the tools to go, well, actually, it's okay to feel sort of anger and sadness, to feel, um, optimism and worry. Do you think I'm interested that with that. And again, I'm sort of learning with it. But I think part of the problem potentially and I'm just reflecting on me and maybe where we are as a society, that we've got a list of emotions here, sadness, anger that maybe have a negative connotation, where you've got happiness, joy, um, you know, positivity, all of these emotions over here that are seen as good, um, emotions. So is it that we've just got actually all emotions? One of the things I'm trying to teach and I speak to my kids about is that all emotions are welcome. Right. And I think that's the thing is that I suppose, especially if one of them's having a bit of a meltdown or kicking off you go. Actually, all these emotions are what the behaviour is. You know, if they're being horrible or mean or something like that, a behaviour is not acceptable, but 100% that emotion is welcome, however that comes in and it's just that we're given, I think, I think if you ask most people, there'd be these are emotions, where would you put them? Good emotion, bad emotion, maybe anger. Is that oh, I don't I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud I suppose. But it gets quite philosophical. But it's maybe you just put all emotions into the same bucket and they're all okay. Mhm. Yeah I do have a view around. Okay. Let's just call it for what most people recognise as being the harder emotions, the uncomfortable ones or the negative ones. I have a view. Actually, they are gold because they reveal at a much a very deep, profound level the essence of who you are. If you're angry, yeah. You can't create anger. If you're angry, it's because something has touched something or has triggered something that is important to you. So there's your code to go. I really care about X because I'm angry about it. And the same with sadness, guilt, jealousy, shame. They're all uncomfortable, but perhaps they're just uncomfortably revealing of your true essence, your authenticity. Um, and perhaps, yeah, there is that space for. Wow. If we can get the younger generation to be aware of that. Comfortable with it. Um, I'm also starting to think that perhaps there is a section of the younger generation that probably are, and it's just us older fogeys that have never had that. We're just learning it at a later date. Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sam, I think you were about to go on to another experience in in your life that's also revealed where it was tough or a struggle or a challenge. And. Yeah, I think I, I guess I just wanted to share some of the other bits just to put in context of where I've. My head's always been with it, I think. And um, and like I said, just to paint a picture, I've been very fortunate in my life not to face a huge amount of adversity. There's some challenges, but the biggest challenge or crisis, I guess, is what was my struggle with mental health when, you know, um, and what's basically shaped the rest of my life and my, my work that I'm doing now. And, and it was based around, you know, I was 39, I was coming up to my 40th birthday. Kids were young. They would have been about 2 or 3 at that age. Um, been my wife 20 odd years and, you know, didn't own a house, but we was living. You know, we was living in a rented accommodation in, in Brighton. And I had this narrative. I started my business career when I was 30, and over the next ten years, I'd made a promise to myself I'd be a millionaire. You know, I'd shared many times, I, I watched so much, Only Fools and Horses. That was the thing. Like, oh, this time next year, of course, this time next year. And it become a bit of a joke thing, but I was convinced I was going to be. I was going to be a millionaire. That was my driver. Why did I start a business? I didn't care what my first business was a hair salon, a 30. I didn't cut hair, I just I wanted to run a business because I felt I could be this entrepreneur. I'd read all the books that Richard Branson, Duncan Ballantine, and all of these people come from nothing. Built £1 million. I'm that. I'm going to build this business and I'm going to be a millionaire. And I was driven by this need to go. I'm gonna have that big house. As soon as I get that money, I'm gonna to buy my Lamborghini, and I'm going to drive from the top of Sicily to the bottom. And you know all these. I'm going to get there. Of course I'm going to get there. And I've got to 39. And as I'm coming to my 40th birthday, I was probably the furthest from that that I'd ever been. I was running two businesses at the time, which were okay. They were, you know, they were putting food on the table for the kids. We had a holiday. You know, what did I need? But my metric, the metric in what I was measuring, was based on this financial milestone. I'm going to become a millionaire. And because I wasn't, I hadn't hit that like this gnawing sense of failure that I was just. I haven't achieved what I set out to achieve. I was the opposite to a successful entrepreneur. I was a failure. Um, and that away at me in a massive way. Like, I, um, am. I looked at the kids. And Kelly, I'd been. I'd known her since I was 11. Promised her this life that I would provide. And I didn't feel that I was providing. I didn't feel that I, I was delivering, I was delivering a life that I'd promised that and not not that actually she wanted or that the kids wanted. What did the kids want? They just wanted love. They just wanted me. They didn't care about what car we drove or what holiday we went on, or what house we was in. I don't care if we got a mortgage or rent in Dayton. Don't give a shit. They just want you to love them, and I did. I loved them unconditionally. All of them. But society's narrative would have looked at me. And, you know, I've shared it many times. The dictionary definition is still the attainment of fame, wealth and social status. So that's the dictionary definition. I'm looking at that gain and all the people I aspired to be as this entrepreneur, I was nowhere near that. So if that's what success is, I'm not that I'm the complete opposite. So it just and I spoke about this period of time lots over the next few years. And it was it wasn't until last year that I really relived that moment. And I unpacked it. I unpacked what what I went through at that stage and how low I went and I didn't I didn't acknowledge it. I don't think properly until I revisited it in depth last year. And I was I went to, you know, I went to a very, very dark place, like to the point I didn't want to be here anymore. You know, I just yeah, I still I still remember we live in that moment. I still remember, like getting up every day, putting on this mask, trying to be this guy that everyone knew, the eternal optimist. I'd lived that life of being in it. I'm always positive Sam's away. Everything's going. Oh, Sam, he's a cheeky chap. You promised. He's a geezer. And he. And I was. And I just kept withdrawing and kept withdrawing from people. Mates was ringing me out. I ain't heard from you. Are you alright, mate? And I just wouldn't answer the phone. Didn't want to speak to anyone because I couldn't be that guy. I'm the guy that you ring up and you go, yeah, yeah, let me smash it. Busy at the minute. It was so busy. Great. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. I'm having. I'm living it up. Brilliant. Everything's great. I didn't want to be the guy when you ring me and go. Actually, I'm. I'm not in a good way. I feel a bit down at the moment. I'm not down. I'm never down. So I'm. I'm excited. Well, what do you think reflecting back was holding you back from giving that answer? Yes, I think. I think I was just scared of of being that person. I felt like it would be again, back to these archaic now that I felt like I didn't want to be a negative, but I was a positive person. So if I started telling people I'm down and I'm struggling, then I'm a negative. I'm not. I'm my identity is wrapped up in this person over here. So I didn't want to. I didn't want to admit to myself or to anyone else that I was this person. So but by doing that, you just isolate yourself more and more and you withdraw, and then you get to a point where I was, I was I remember, I remember absolutely cry my eyes out. I just couldn't, I wasn't sleeping, I got up and I just cry and I remember I still remember that day. I remember walking out to the I come, I come out of the toilet and I'd wipe my eyes. I was meant to go to a meeting and I walked out, give the kids a kiss, and Kelly and I walked out, sat in my car and I just sat there crying. My eyes out for ages. Didn't turn in and I just sat and I just was like, oh, everyone will be better off without me. Yeah, that was the that was the reality of it. That was the reality at that point for me. Um, and I still I still look back at that time, I think. I don't know why. What what what switch for what made me get out of the car and walk back in. But I did. And the second I did, things started to change a bit because the second I walked in, the kids ran up to me. I love you, daddy. I got old man. I love you, daddy. Kelly. See, I was just like, distraught. I just caught her eyes and she cuddled me like, what are you? And I was I'm not. I'm just not in a good place. But for me, at that moment, I'm not. I'm looking at this shit all wrong. Look at. Look at what I'm doing. I'm. I'm here. I'm struggling and I'm measuring. I'm a metric in which I'm looking at my life is based on this financial milestone that society or myself have put this narrative out there and look at me. I'm surrounded by love. Mm. Mhm. Unbelievable amounts of love. I've mentioned my beautiful parents, my brother mates who I've grown up with, who walk in front of a bus for me and I'd do the same for it. Yeah. People in the business community who, you know, just. I could pick a phone up to any of them at any point and they'd be there to help me find it. Not surrounded by love. The metric in which I'm measuring my success is based on relationships. I am having it off. I am here, am, I am. I am a multi-millionaire. I am a multi-millionaire. And I'm like, okay. And then I guess that's that for me has shaped so much of these last six years. It's just shaped this journey and this, I guess my. My way of, of of of looking at the world and, and and inquiring about what other people think success is and why that is like, why can we not maybe change this negative? Because I know if I'd change that negative for me, but then maybe I wouldn't have got to that point. Mhm. Um, so talk and thank you for the sort of honesty and the, the share. Um, I can see it's not an easy experience to, to relive. How did you and since then navigated through that. What I'm hearing and feeling from you, there was a realisation of dawning of actually I'm surrounded by beautiful people, relationships and love. Then what? So you're in a dark place. You've shown your vulnerability to Kelly. Mhm. Okay. So then what what were the sort of mini next steps that took you out. Yeah I think I think there's, I think, I think there's a couple of things and not really working on until you start unpacking it that over the last few years has been a real journey for me. And I still, I think it's only really been a major shift in probably the last, like the last year has been a really big shift because over the last year it was definitely a realisation. And I believe in going actually, okay, um, I need that. I'm surrounded by love, so I've got people around me that will help and support me. Um, so it's okay to lean on that. It's okay to what I've recognised. What I recognise at that point and over the next few years was actually. It's okay to go, oh, you know, I'm struggling a little bit today. Uh, it doesn't look, my identity is not lost. I'm still Sam. I'm still positive. I'm still the eternal optimist. I'm just struggling at the minute, and that's okay. It goes back to those, like recognising two emotions can exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can still be you independent optimist. But actually it's that struggling sad. I'm going through a hard time at the minute. I'm going for a really hard time. Um, and I'm going to share that with you. And by doing that, showing that That people are, mate. What can I do to help? Or you know. Have you looked at it like this? And then I'll get my energy from people. I'm a I'm a people person. I can be shattered and not slept for about a week. And you can put me in the middle of an event, and I'm going to get my energy from people because that's it, I love that. So, um, I know that fills my cup and I get energised. So surround myself with more people and say, I'm struggling. I don't know, I haven't got the answers to this problem at the moment. How do I navigate that? Um, I don't know if there was a specific moment you can go from Sam that's doubled down on being independent. Glass half full, optimistic. Hit a real low, the lowest of the load, let's be honest. Was there? Is there any memory or an imprint of going. Actually, there was one time when I just went, I'm struggling, or I reached out to whoever it might have been on a Kelly, a close mate, a professional friend. Yeah, I think, I think there's been a been a few times over the last few years where I have um, and bear in mind, like the last few years haven't been, I haven't I didn't have that. I would call it an epiphany at that point where the kids and and that definitely changed my narrative in my head. But so that helped me and I got through that. But over the last few years, I still that are old, archaic narrative is still played on me when things, you know, you're struggling financially. Let's be honest. Like I'm looking at the money in the bank and I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. You know I haven't got money. I'm again. I'm a failure again because I haven't got to this point. So you struggle with that? Um, and I've there's been points where I've gone, oh, I can feel myself withdrawing again. Um, I don't think there's been a specific moment where I actually went, um, you know, I've completely changed this. Now, I'm still on that journey to it, but there's definitely been periods where a close friend of mine, who we chat about business all the time and, and I, I felt like I could open up and I think by sharing our low got for me in the past, I don't want to. I never want to be there again. I don't think I've been. I've been in some again, dark places, but never that low again. Um, but again, what's probably helped me not go as low as that is going. I'm fucking who I am. I am struggling at the minute, and then people are checking in and people are asking me if I'm okay and and I'm going, I need to be around people then, and I need to go out and get that energy and, and, and and try and ask for that help to get. This is the problem when I don't I haven't got the answer to this. What does add uh can you help me and they. Yeah. Yeah mate. Of course. Like, what have you looked at this like whether it be financial and it's really hard really hard for someone who's independent and someone who has grown up with that narrative in my head that I will survive on my own. And and it's embarrassing and it's shameful and it's all feelings of guilt that if I ever had to say, yeah, can you lend me a couple of will it be my mum and dad or whoever going? I hated that. I hate that, and it gnaws away at me. But it's just I'm just trying again, trying to reframe things. I'm trying to look at it and go, actually, actually, this is just a moment in time. Money is just a thing and it's energy. And someone's just got more of that than me at the moment. And they're able to help me with that. And, you know, that's got me through some of them times. And you go, okay. And just trying to remove that. And no one has ever done it and made me feel guilty about that. It's only my own internal narrative. Right. So I think it's just it's just understanding and accepting those things about me. And still I'm on a journey with it and. But what I've noticed that there's never really if I look back and reflect over the last, especially the last few years, there's never been a time really. I've asked for help and someone's not gone. Yeah, of course, of course, mate, I'm there for you. What would you need? I'm not just talking financial, but what do you need emotionally or what do you. Yeah. Mate, let's go meet for a beer. Or should we go for a walk, or do you wanna come and have a swim with me or whatever that might be? See you guys. Why does it hold us back so much? And when I, on the flip side of it, me to other people, right? Of course. I'm the first person there. If someone needs something. Oh, of course I'm there for you. Would you give you the last pound in your pocket if it's going to help you? Of course I will either. I'll drop that and I'll come meet you. I'll be there and it makes you feel good. That's why I love that. Even the whole. It's been so much from learning from you and even just the from our first interaction and just the message of the. I loved the phrasing of the gift of help. It is such a is such a beautiful gift. Does that play into what you've described as like your evolving journey around? Okay. I'm surrounded by love. I'm surrounded by support and surrounded by help. What you've just described as to it gives you a lift. Has that played into like that shift? Has that sort of like influenced. You're like like come on Sam. I've loved doing it for other people. If I can be brave, if I can be open and vulnerable, I'm giving others the opportunity of the gift of offering help. Has that played into that journey? Massively. And I can, only I can. I think for me, like the last year highlighted more. More than ever. More than ever. Like I would say, probably since that dark, dark time. Probably the lowest I got was again around only as as early as last December. I got to the end of the year last year. Um, and then my old archaic narratives were there again. I got to the end of the year and I graphed it again, and I looked and I was like, I'm still here just doing this same position. I've not moved forward, really. Nothing's really changed financially. And, you know, with the businesses and stuff, I've just not I'm just here again. I'm just grafting, doing the same thing, getting the same result. What had I got? So a couple of things changed. I remember getting up on the 20th of December last year and I stopped drinking. So I'm going to stop drinking. I'm going to make some shifts for next year. Right. Next year is going to look different. For whatever reason. Next year is going to look different. Oh, now I'm going to get to December. This this year. And I'm going to look back and things are going to be different. And there's really honestly there's I can make some personal changes. I think there's you know, we've got to take accountability. We I do believe we've always got a choice in life, mainly a choice of how we react to things. I think we can look at situations and they can be dire, but how we choose to react to that is is really important. And I think I chose my my choice was I am going to take control of what I can control. And any of you I can't, I'm going to I'm going to ask for help and I'm going to go. And I started this year by putting my hand up and going, I need some help. I'm a serial entrepreneur who is winging it and hasn't really got a clue what I'm doing. Listen, I'm going to be honest, there I am. So I need some help and I've got a massive network of people that I've built, these relationships that I keep talking about. They're ready to help me. There was a guy, Nigel Lamb. His name is. He, um. About 18 months ago. Longer, actually, about two years ago, he came up to me a massive event where everyone in Brighton goes to Best of British. Right? And it's one of the events of the year. About 500 people at the Grand. And he come up to me and he said, um, well, we had a few drinks and he'd come out and he went, um, I love the things you're doing. He said, you're amazing. Loved the stuff you're doing. I love the message, your energy, everything about you said, can I can I make a couple of observations? Yeah, yeah, of course. He said, look, everyone who's anyone in the Brighton community here said, if I got you to do a 360. Said, I'd probably put you in the top 5% of most successful people in the room. Oh, wow. That's very kind of. Yeah. Thank you. Not sure I agree, but yeah, I'll take that. Thanks. And he said, but he said I can't work how you make money. I said, well that makes two of us. So he's not. So if I got you to do the same for he's 60. He said I'm probably I might not be able to put you in that same category. Right. I said, no, probably the bottom 5%. See. Okay. So he said there's just a there's disparity there. And I think like maybe I could help with that because I feel you deserve all of that, right? You deserve the financial rewards to the work that you put in in the mission. Okay. Amazing. Yeah. So we met for lunch afterwards, and he was like, I can do a strategy day. I've done it. I've run it a few times for other people, get some good people in the room and we're like, okay. And for whatever reason, I didn't take him up on it. I said, oh, what an amazing thing to offer. And I went, oh, we really appreciate it. And I just didn't take him up on it. What was what was going on? What were you feeling? I thought, how would you think? I think? I think it was archaic narratives. It was. No, no, I've got this. I don't want to. I don't want to ask other people. I can do this. I'll figure it out. I don't want to rely on other people. The independence, the the old narratives of me going, no, no, I'm just going to. I'm just going to carry on. I can figure this out. I'll solve this problem. I'll figure it out. I'm going to make make it all work. And that was, yeah, something actually even more profound than that, because I can relate 100% that sense of your identity. I'm independent, am I? I'm a problem solver. I'm a grafter. This is going to give me, in my own sort of self image, what I want to create. But do you think there's something sort of a bit more profound to that as to unpacking as I've done, as I, as I've done so, especially this last year, I've done a lot of breath work and a lot of self-analysis. I guess, um, what I've recognised, and probably what plays into this more is a feeling of inadequacy. So I grew up with my brother, my best mate. My older brother was the clever one. He was always seen as the clever one, referred to as a clever one sometimes. But my default for that was, um. He's the clever one said, I'm. I'm the thick one. I'm not clever. Yeah, so I played. I played that role a bit of a joker and a bit of a for much of my life. Like no one, not mum and dad definitely didn't make me feel that way. This was my own narrative, right. But I've played that role for so. And I've come out of school, I've done okay. I've done okay. At school, I was not the most intelligent. I didn't love school, I love school for my mates and playing football. But I, you know, it was okay, but I know done okay. And I come out with a couple of cheeses, whatever. But school left me with a feeling of inadequacy, so I've played that in my head. I've lived the life actually. Most probably held me back so much in my life is that I feel inadequate. I would sit in a room of people and I wouldn't speak up or give my opinion because I've got to say I'm thick. I'm an idiot. I could host an event in front of 150 people. I'm hosting the thing. I'm standing up with a microphone in mine and I will still talk about myself. I'm the least articulate person. I'm going to say this wrong, but yeah, derogatory to myself. Even though I've got 150 people in the room, I'm hosting this thing, and yet I'm the one putting myself down about it because of this feeling of inadequacy. And I think that's the thing for me. If if you're going into that, why I didn't. Because all it done me asking for help meant I was inadequate. Sort of reinforcing that. Yeah. And this is fascinating because it goes back to actually the top of the conversation. We were talking about childhood. And it's often we don't necessarily have access or the clarity is not there to pinpoint that as you're honestly saying, it was never done with malice. But we're children, right? So we will create narratives and stories and attachments to. Yeah. If my brother's being celebrated as the clever one to use your words, then by default I'm not being told I'm clever. So therefore I'm not clever. And it's it's fascinating. And I've done this for with my own self-discovery and therapy and analysis of then giving some grace and compassion to that younger Sam or younger Ashley to go. Okay, so then it's understandable that you've grown up with that, what you're calling narrative, archaic narrative, I feel. Well, I'd be curious to hear if you feel the same way of going, if you can give some gentleness, some compassion to that. It's soft, softens it, and you get less intensely attached to it. And what I'd be really curious about, And I can be honest and say this is also a much a question that I'm sitting with at the moment myself, with your honesty around this, um, self narrative of inadequacy. Um, do you think there was an influence of that subconsciously or whatever your view is in terms of spirituality or the universe? That might have been sort of self-perpetuating. The I'm not getting to this position of abundance or financial comfort or success or fulfilling your potential. So the question actually, what I'm trying to suggest here is do you recognise or do you believe in that? Well, the narrative actually has held me back because even if I'm subconsciously it's it's there somehow it's putting out to the universe That, then it doesn't come back and provide the means, the abundance, the what you're worth. What's your feelings? Are that 100%? 100%. Ah, look at what's changed this year. I've asked for help, so I've actively gone out. And I've gone back to that night when he's given me hosted, facilitated this amazing. Got out. Like if you had a board of people that I had some of the most successful traditional metrics of success in this room in Sussex, all sitting there, give up two hours of their time just to help me. What I've been doing some conscious, connected breathwork with an amazing woman called Sam Adams, who has taken me on a journey through that to exactly the this type of process for understanding how much that's held me back, how much that feeling and that narrative has stopped me from progressing in my life and not getting and and and and actually getting back to the emotion side of it. Doing the conscious connects, actually releasing so much suppressed emotion and enabled me like afterwards. I've been journaling, never journaled in my life, ever. People said to me, you should journal a lot. Deep thinker you do. You should journal. Sit there with a book. I'm like, no idea what I'm going to write after the the breathwork. I'm not writing a book of stuff. All this suppressed emotion coming out and so much of it, so much of the first few sessions I had were there was this underlying thing of, you're not enough. You are, you are not enough, you're inadequate. You're all of these feelings. And this from like trying to unpack, looking at stuff like our, my relationship with my dad, um, my which is amazing. Um, and yet I look at my brother's relationship with my bed bed and mine Uh, was the fact that I played football and I was pretty good at it was a great thing because I got approval them from my church, I mean, and again, nothing that he had ever done to make me feel anything but just my own narrative around that whole subject. Right. So, you see, you look at all them things must have been nice for me over this process. And getting to where I am. Today is the last session I've done with that. I wrote a legacy letter before. I've done the breath work, and the legacy letter was the person you want to become. Right. So on your deathbed, you're looking back. This is what people are saying about. And what was amazing about that, about that process. I wrote this this legacy letter. What was wonderful is I read it back out. I read it back to her after we'd done it, and I was describing who I am now. And I was like, wow. And then we'd done breath work and then I cried again, as I've done every time. And then I wrote, I've got up and up because I love drawing and she wasted. Like, because you're creative, you'll probably draw or write or whatever. I drew a picture of me, um, now walking along with a little mailed in hand and or over hand was. You have enough? You have enough. I am enough, I am enough, and I'm like, wow, this shift, this shift today, I feel like I'm enough. Not now. I feel I'm not. And it's no surprise that I'm here in this position now sitting talking to you today and we're coming up to December and I'm looking back I'm it looks a lot different. Everything looks a lot different. Right. I'll be honest with you, I'm probably in a worse financial position today than I was last December. Right. But that's part of my language. Uh, but I'm surviving, you know, I'm surviving, but, um, financially, I'm not in a great position. But I feel amazing because I know it's going to be because I am so aligned with what I'm doing, where I'm going, the mission I'm on, all of the stuff I'm doing are everything. All these little parts of the puzzle all starting to slot into place for me at the moment? And that feels amazing. And I feel that I'm in a position right now, today where I can look back and I know if if I died tomorrow, irrespective of what I achieved or what I've done, I am enough because what I, I am living in alignment with values true to myself, my authentic self. That's got to be success, right? Wow. Wow. Why is she so relevant? I guess is what's got me there. What's this podcast about? What's changed this year compared to 46 years prior to this? It's me again. Excuse me. I need a bit of help here. I can't do this on my own. I need some help. Can you help me? Of course we can help you. And here we are. Things look different. Things look very different for me. And. Wow, what that's going to do where? I'm. I'm sorry. Next year, I feel like I'm standing in the Yankee Stadium. I've got that back and I'm hitting at home. Run! Actually, that's how I feel right now. Who knows if that's going to be the reality of it? I don't know what's going to happen next year, to be honest. And I'll probably get some more challenges and there'll be other things, but I feel in such a good bit because I'm I've got clarity on my mission of where I'm going and what I'm doing. I'm living in alignment with values. And you know what? I've got a great, an amazing group of people around me that are supporting me and helping me to maybe achieve that. What I'm finding fascinating is, Sam, you're if I'm trying to sort of unpack this, which is where my mind works, is there's a combination of the internal work, the bravery, the self-awareness, the vulnerability combined with the external support, love, generosity around you. And what I'm really finding fascinating, it's very topical at the moment of this spirit of it's got to start within. Right. So wonderful. Share and really admire honesty in this whole spirit of genuinely feeling and tapping into and believing I'm enough. Right. But that's for some people. Your journey sounds like a long journey. I'm on a similar journey. It doesn't happen overnight and there's going to be a lot of work. So that's the compliment we can give ourselves to have that bravery and commitment to do it. But what I'm hearing from you and I'm feeling from you is this combination of doing that at the same time as that, people coming into you and saying, the gentleman you mentioned saying, I'd love to help you to have. I know we've talked about other stories of basically got an incredible network of friends and people around you coming and saying, I want to help. Can I support you? That combination has a sort of ten x effect. What I'm feeling from you is, is cementing that genuine feeling of I'm enough. Yeah, yeah. It's the I'm starting to feel it. And then I'm getting it sort of multiplied by other people. Reinforcing it by saying to you are enough because I believe in what you're doing. You've got something of value. I want to partner with you. I want to help you. So it's having that wonderful, let's say, complementary effect on. And this is the way I'm now distilling it down to it. It's got to be both and it's got to be both. And it's this. If this is one insight that I'm taking out of this conversation, is it? One can't exist without the other. You can do all the work on yourself. But if people around you in the universe aren't necessarily reinforcing it, it's a lonely, very tough journey. If it's the other way round of going, you don't believe it. But everyone keeps telling you, Sam, you are enough. You're amazing. You're doing great work, but you don't believe it inside. Then you're never out of first gear. What I'm hearing is your experience. Beautifully framed, is actually the combination of the two is is liberating, is empowering, is everything you've described that spirit of okay. Do I believe in myself? Do I believe I'm enough? And then you've got the wonderful tribe with you that's reinforcing it on that journey. I don't know how you feel about that. I completely agree, I guess. Yeah, I completely agree. I think that, you know, what I think is strange, isn't it? Because we there is definitely that combination. Ah, real validation has got to come from within, right. You've got a it's got to be intrinsic. What we do live in a world that's we crave external validation. So whether that be social media and likes and etc. or um, are people telling us that our great we are and and all of that. It's not not irrelevant. It's probably the wrong word, but it doesn't really matter Sir, if intrinsically you don't believe it. What if my internal narrative is earlier this year? So I'm saying where I am today, which is an amazing place to be, building a good place. And that's a lovely thing to say. People asking me or and I'm saying you are me and I'm going, you know, why am I okay? At the moment things are really good and I and I can say that wholeheartedly. Be honest about that. Um. Not a fake. Yeah, yeah. I'm fine. I'm. I feel like that. I'm only going back a couple of months, probably not even 6 to 8 weeks ago, where I wasn't where I was feeling a bit. And and so it's still been a journey this year, although I'm here today and I'm in a good place. Uh, it's been a journey to get there, you know, at the beginning of the year, February, I had as much external validation as I needed. I done my 100th episode and I've done I had 150 people in a room were all there just to celebrate with me, to celebrate that day, and I've got a standing ovation to watching the 100th episode and the amazing amount of comments I had afterwards, and some lovely messages from beautiful people. And I felt if you could have bottled that night, oh honestly, it was magic. It was magic. And I probably lived off that this year. It's been incredible. It was an incredible external validation of me as an individual. And someone said to me that everyone's here for you, and we see you. And I felt seen and heard that day more than I possibly ever have done. What an amazing feeling. But. That can't last. If intrinsically I look inside and I still don't feel enough. Yeah. And then I look at the last few months from June when I separated from my wife after 28 years. It's my best friend. I've known her since I was 11 years old and we separated. And that that has been a tough journey. There's been all those feelings of inadequacy and failure, and all of them things have been playing on my mind the last few months. I let the kids down and I've let her out. All of it. And yet what's been beautiful about it is we've separated with love. That's what that was. That's been our narrative that we've tried to hold on to. And I can honestly say we've achieved that where we are today. And it manifests out, I don't know. But today we've achieved that and we've separated. We are best friends, probably closer than we've ever been. It's beautiful as a separation. What a lovely thing to do. But what happened over these last few months is I've started doing the breathwork. I've started looking inward a lot more, and it's taken me to some really tough places. I've been really, and I've actually I've mentioned earlier about getting more energy from other people. I chose purposely, I made the choice to spend time on my own, in my own thoughts, and that has been a really tough journey for me. I've not liked to live in there, but for the first time probably in my life, I've felt the feelings. I've really looked really deep inward. I've really gone inside and unpacked a lot of this feeling of inadequacy. While I have been digging a bit deeper into that. What? What does that really mean? And and not necessarily. I don't want it to sound like anyone. Listen, I don't sound like I'm. I'm really conscious about. I don't want to look for problems that are not there. I mean, like I said, I've got the best mum and dad in the world. I've always loved unconditionally. The end. That's it. I don't need to look for stuff that's not there that I've got. I've not had trauma as a kid. No, not at all. Internal narratives. Yes. And stuff that I'm telling myself and things I've lived up to. But I'm not trying to make it sound like I. That's definitely not the case. But there is, as both of us, we we start conversations with looking at what happened in your childhood, and there's some narratives there, whether that's been forced by other people or there's always just what you hear yourself that shapes us. And I think what I've highlighted is that so the last few months have been really, really tough. But I guess I'm coming out of that again because of one looked inward a lot more intrinsically. I feel happier with who I am as a person and that I'm living that legacy. There was a real big turning point for me, looking and recognising, actually living that today. I'm doing that today. And that was that feeling of oh, and it was almost like a sigh of relief, like, okay, okay, I have enough. Yeah, exactly. And that's okay. Amazing. And I think that's the that's maybe the shift. But a couple of last things just to, to, to wrap this up, it's been such an extraordinary conversation. No surprise. Um, we talked about it. It'd be wonderful just to give a lovely example of. I think you talked about it off air. Of where? Like, someone's helped you and then framed it to you in a way that was like, ah, this has been a gift. Could you give that just a little? Yeah, of course. I think, you know, there's a there's a few people that have, uh, you know, mention any names, but, um, not to embarrass people. Yeah, certainly. Whether it be financial or, um, just advice or whatever that. But actually, I did ask someone I this is coming out. I need a little bit of help here with something. And their response to me was, oh, thank you. Thank you for giving me the gift of allowing me to help you. And immediately, what that does is helps to remove a little bit of guilt, that shame and guilt around it. Oh. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to help you. What a beautiful thing. What a gift that they then give back to me. So they're telling me I'll give them a gift. They've given a gift back to me. All around. Help! Now! Oh, I felt lighter. Bear in mind, me asking for that help. Plays into my old narrative. I cried when I asked for help. Played into my old narrative of inadequacy. I mean, I'm asking. I'm asking for something. I'm asking for help, I feel inadequate. So he's paying into my old narratives, right? They believed that. But I go in. Thank you for. And he done that based on the fact he listened to our podcast, The Man You Did, which was a beautiful thing. And he said, I love the way that Ashley referred to it, this gift of help. And he used those words to me. Thank you for giving me the gift of allowing me to help you. Beautiful. That made me feel well. You've now imprinted something for me, and I'd wonder if you're considering it as well of a practice to do this in the other way around. I mean, I know you, Sam. You're, like, the most generous. How can I help person in in if not Brighton and certainly in this room? No, but, uh, I'm just thinking about it. It's going. Yeah, this is the reminder. I use this in a lot of, like, my talks and podcasts is to communicate that back in the sense of reinforcing that it has been a pleasure. You know, we often use that language. Yeah, it's a pleasure. But to pick up on that example of when someone has helped you. So what am I trying to say here? Will you now use that terminology that that practice of like when you've helped someone to actually reinforce and go, thank you, it was a gift or it gave me a boost or genuinely, it was a pleasure. Well, on a on a smaller scale, to Addie's person, help me. I did do that for someone like someone said, you know, a couple of occasions. But again and I did use and I have used it and it does it much like I said, my response to them was, thank you for being so brave, for asking. Thank you for being so brave for asking, and thank you for allowing me to do. I know it's not much, but I'll hopefully I can help and thank you for letting me do that for you. It's a wonderful phrasing. It's like, thank you for allowing me to help you because it's been a real gift. Yeah, well, if we reframe like, what does it look like? Like, that's why your work so fascinating, so brilliant, I think because what does it make him reframing that. Imagine if we'd all like that. That the world do people struggle less like I'm looking at, you know, the work I'm doing within the space around mental health and suicide and all of. All of that. What does it look like if there isn't the shame and guilt that surrounds? Ask him for help. He's a gift. That. How does that impact that mental health crisis? I have made I will speak from my own experience. I've just shared habits, made me feel they took that. The people that have helped me. They have taken that shame and guilt of me asking for help and gone, I've got this absolutely no problem. No. It's a pleasure to help you. Let me help you. Allow me to help you. Because I really want. I've got this. And and that's it at the end. Forget about it. Now I've done that. Let's just forget about it now and we will pull it, you know? Okay. The guilt and stuff. Less guilt. Less shame. And if we can change them. Narratives. I think that helps. It's amazing. We can frame it as being here is one of the most simple, powerful antidotes to guilt and shame. inadequacy. So to close this off, in the spirit of being courageous and in the spirit of allowing people out there, whoever's listening to experience this gift with all the work you're doing now, amazing work around mental health, suicide prevention. Your right mate campaign, is there a ask for help you want to put out there to people listening out there to the universe? I think my, my, my biggest ask is something I do every Monday, right? My my biggest ask is to to check in on people that that that the whole campaign. Your right mate. Um, I think I really believe I really believe that that can shift the needle a little bit. I believe. And my ask is if you can help as much as possible to spread that just even if it's just every Monday or once a week, every day, hopefully. But once a week that you just go, I'm going to check in on someone. I think that would be my ask. If I'm asking people for help, it would be that just because I believe that we can that that regular check in. Because I know someone said to me, um, how successful was the You Made campaign been? And my my answer is always, how do you define success? Um, so has it gone viral? No, it hasn't. But have people sent me a message? Go in. Um. Oh, I sent this to someone, and they they were struggling. So thank you for doing it. Great. Ultimately, how much has helped me. I've explained in the last few months how tough has been separating from my wife and what that looked like. People, you included, will message me and go, you're like me. And actually just seeing that phrase, like now I've had people who have messaged me or called me and maybe when I've been feeling a bit low, I might have not answered that. But they put that phrase me know enough money in a campaign going, how can I not answer that right? So it's helped me. It really helped me over the last few months to go. I need to tell people how I'm feeling. And I think a couple of times you have asked me and I've gone, actually, I'm, I'm struggling and you've you've reciprocated when I've asked you and, and and it just allows people to have that open dialogue in that conversation. And I think so that's my biggest ask. I just as I do every week, just please check in on people ask that question because, yeah, it could save a life. And is there a bigger gift we can give? Sam. Amazing. This conversation has been a gift. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so, so much for your You're sharing your honesty, your bravery. Um. I wish you all the luck and all the best in your work, in your campaign. Your right, mate. And. Yeah. Really, really appreciate it. And you. Thank you mate. Honestly, from the start I said, I think when we first had that very first conversation, I was I think I quite a lot on that time as well. You obviously have a gift to yourself of holding a space for, for people. And you did that day as and as almost every conversation we've had, which is always wonderful. So, um, thank you for the work you're doing and allowing me the time and space today. So grateful. Been an absolute pleasure. Cheers, mate. Cheers, mate. Thanks so much for listening. And, um, I'd love to hear from you about your own experiences with help, perhaps insights on some mental blocks, or the challenges you face, or even ways that you're overcoming them. You can reach me on email at Ashley at The Gift of Help, Org or you can search for Ashley Siskin and DM me on Facebook, instore or LinkedIn. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, a like or comment will always be massively appreciated. And please make sure to subscribe to keep up to date on new episodes. And lastly, and most importantly, please share this with someone you think who could benefit from hearing this? That independent, proudly self-reliant, and maybe stubbornly resistant to help friend, family member or colleague? Imagine how wonderful it would be to encourage them to welcome more help into their lives. And of course, the chance for you to feel good about changing the life of someone you care about, and then also the lives of those around them. And I'll leave you with the final reminder that we can all trigger this gift of help every day, simply by helping yourself to help each other.